Russian Ambassador G. S. Logvinov
On February 10, Russia celebrates Diplomat's Day. On the eve of this day, Russian Ambassador Grigory Semenovich Logvinov, who has been in the diplomatic service since 1979, spoke in an interview with the Russian newspaper “Edinenie”, when the diplomatic service was born in Rus', how Yaroslav the Wise strengthened ties with European powers, about 75 years of diplomatic relations between Russia and Australia and about the interaction of the Embassy with Russian compatriots.
— Grigory Semenovich, congratulating the Embassy employees on their professional holiday, can we say that the diplomatic service originated in Russia many centuries ago?
— Our ancestors traded and interacted with neighboring peoples already in those days when statehood in Rus' had not yet been formed. In the 9th century. Kievan Rus was an influential participant in international relations in Europe, had contacts with Byzantium, the country of the Franks Ingelheim, four dozen different states, principalities and unions. The high authority of Kievan Rus is evidenced by the fact that the daughters of Prince Yaroslav the Wise became queens of Denmark, Norway, Hungary and France.
The date of the beginning of the institutional period of Russian diplomacy is considered to be February 10, 1549; it accounts for the earliest documentary mention of the Ambassadorial Order, and the department has had its current name - the Ministry of Foreign Affairs - for more than 210 years.
— They say that diplomacy is distinguished by the search for peaceful ways to resolve complex contradictions between countries. That is, diplomats have a noble task - to maintain peace on earth. What are the most striking examples from the history of the successes of Russian diplomacy in the past?
— The interaction of states in the international arena often resembles relations between people. They also need help finding common ground, mutual understanding, and ways to resolve disagreements. Essentially, the mission of diplomacy is to prevent conflicts and keep the military out of work. As A. A. Gromyko said - although he earned the nickname “Mr. No” - “ten years of the worst negotiations are better than one day of the best war.”
As for the achievements of Russian diplomacy, Russia’s authority as one of the main players in the international arena speaks for itself.
I will highlight a number of points in the space of the Asia-Pacific region (APR), which is familiar to me, to which, among other things, Australia belongs.
The main achievements include relations with China, in which we managed not only to maintain the positive foundation achieved in Soviet times, but also to multiply it many times over. I will not hide that not everything was simple, given the highly ideological approach of the period of “romantic democracy” of the early 1990s and the politicized attitude towards territorial issues. However, we have completely resolved the border problem, and relations with China have taken us to a qualitatively new level of comprehensive partnership and strategic interaction.
In second place I would put the formation of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), the 15th anniversary of the signing of the Charter (Charter) of which was celebrated last year. In a short period by historical standards, the SCO has taken its rightful place among authoritative and influential international and regional organizations, and has become an effective factor in ensuring security, stability and sustainable development in the modern system of interstate relations. Today, the territory of the 8 states included in the organization is more than 34 million km², the population is over 3 billion people, and the total GDP is about 32 trillion. US dollars.
It was possible to promote a region-wide dialogue on the principles of forming a new architecture of security and cooperation in the Asia-Pacific region, based on the universal principles of the indivisibility of security, the supremacy of international law, the peaceful settlement of disputes, and the non-use of force or threat of force. The Brazil-Russia-India-China-South Africa (BRICS) association has entered its second decade, which has transformed from a “club of interests” into a full-fledged mechanism for strategic partnership of leading developing countries in many areas. The Russia-India-China (RIC) platform has demonstrated its effectiveness as a tool for developing dialogue and practical cooperation. Following the results of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit in Vladivostok in 2012, which even outspoken ill-wishers were forced to recognize as a success, Russia became one of its most authoritative members. The dialogue between Russia and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) is developing dynamically, a powerful impetus to which was given by the summit held in Sochi on May 19-20, 2016. Significant progress has been made in promoting the Russian idea of creating a Eurasian Comprehensive Partnership with the participation of member states of the Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU), SCO and ASEAN.
I would also like to include here the role that Russia plays in preventing the escalation of the crisis on the Korean Peninsula. Recent events clearly demonstrate that resolving the nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula is possible only in the context of a general military-political detente in the subregion and the construction of political and legal mechanisms for peace, security and stability. I would like to hope that those who promote alternative confrontational algorithms will not have to see their mistakes in practice.
Of course, I cannot help but mention Syria, where Russia’s energetic involvement contributed to the elimination of the main forces of the ISIS terrorist group in this country and the formation of preconditions for a political settlement of the conflict under the auspices of the UN.
— How have relations between Russia and Australia developed over the past 75 years, after diplomatic ties were established between them? What do you see as the role of Russian diplomats in improving relations, what positive examples of mutual understanding could you give in the political field, economics and culture?
— Russian-Australian relations go back 211 years. During this period they were, for the most part, friendly and constructive. In the 19th century Russian sailors received a warm welcome in Australian ports. We appreciate the assistance that Australians provided to our country in the fight against fascism, supplying clothing and medicine to the USSR. The Northern convoys, in which Australian pilots and sailors participated, played an important role in this. Our relations remained mutually respectful during the Cold War.
Of course, not everything is simple in bilateral relations now. They are inseparable from the general situation in the world, which is complex, confusing and contradictory. There was even a “tough”, semi-crisis period. It is all the more pleasant to note that over the past two years, a moderate but fairly stable positive trend has been noted in contacts with the “green continent”. We see many points of contact in political, scientific, technical, economic, financial, cultural, humanitarian and other areas. The Embassy team has done and will do everything to maximally contribute to the development of dialogue and cooperation with the “green continent” based on common interests and approaches, mutual benefit.
— More than 80 thousand people with Russian roots live in Australia. Some of them have preserved Russian traditions, language, culture, and the Orthodox faith. How could you, as a representative of modern Russia, comment on this?
— According to my observations, the figure you cited may be even higher. Unfortunately, a significant percentage of Russian compatriots who have left for Australia have a negative attitude towards their native country and strive to cut off all ties with it. This phenomenon is far from unique; I encountered a similar situation while working in the USA.
Currently, the situation in the Russian-speaking diaspora, alas, is far from prosperous. The charge of mutual hostility and irritation, as is already clear, accumulated over a long period and has now burst out. There are also complaints about the Embassy, although, in my opinion, this already looks like a bad parody of the fables about certain “Russian hackers” who destroyed the electoral process in the United States.
It is striking that in terms of the degree of bitterness and intransigence, all these collisions have reached the level of military action. At the same time, some appeal to the Embassy and Moscow, others shout about the inadmissibility of the Embassy’s interference in the affairs of compatriots. It’s hard to believe that everything is happening within the framework of public non-profit associations, which, in my opinion, should be created by people and for the sake of people. Once again I want to confirm: the Embassy has maintained and maintains equally close relations with all structures of its compatriots, such as they themselves decide to create, although I was and remain a convinced supporter of the formation of country coordination - but not command - institutions. The only thing that is categorically unacceptable to us is slander, slander, insults, and humiliation of human dignity.
You correctly mentioned the older generation of “Russian Australians” who have preserved Russian traditions, language, culture, and faith. I will add: primordially Russian ethics and morality. Perhaps we need to learn from them.
In conclusion, I would like to once again urge all compatriots, especially those who retain Russian citizenship, to remember
that in less than a month and a half there will be presidential elections in Russia. The Embassy will soon determine the dates and locations of early voting. I suggest that everyone put aside their infighting for the time being, declare a moratorium on various competitive meetings and elections, stop the hostile rhetoric and focus on providing the most favorable atmosphere for the free expression of the will of Russian citizens in Australia.
On the picture:
Russian Ambassador G. S. Logvinov
Engraving “Participants of the Vienna Congress of 1814-1815.”
The newly appointed Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Russia to Australia Grigory Semenovich Logvinov.
- First of all, Grigory Semenovich, thank you for the opportunity to meet and ask questions. You have just started working in a new position. To get acquainted, please tell our readers where you are from, where you studied, and the main milestones of your working career. As a diplomat, what languages do you speak?
Born in 1956, in East Berlin, in the family of a foreign trade worker. I am a sinologist by training. Graduated from the Institute of Asian and African Countries in 1979. I chose Chinese at the institute myself, I still don’t know why, probably it was some kind of inspiration. But since then I haven’t regretted it for a minute, although learning Chinese turned out to be quite difficult. Nevertheless, he learned, even from 1985 to the 90s he was one of the main Chinese translators at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Translated for Andrei Andreevich Gromyko, then for Shevardnadze, Gorbachev, Ryzhkov. Now I’m a little rusty, probably haven’t had any practice for a long time. If we talk about languages, in addition to Chinese, I also speak German and English. The Chinese language differs from Russian in its internal logic.
When I began to study Chinese, German and English seemed to me “native”, having a common logic, although the specifics of even these languages, of course, are different. English prefers short sentences; in German, sentences can often be incredibly long. It must be said that the Russian language in past years was also distinguished by the same beauties. Take the formula of the Imperial Oath from the time of Anna Ioannovna, where one sentence can take up an entire page.
- Fortunately, now everything is simplified in languages, sometimes even more than we would like.
So, I devoted half my life to China, in total I lived in China for about 15 years. Then - five years of work at our embassy in the USA. And for the last 7 years before arriving in Australia he worked as Ambassador-at-Large.
- What kind of position is this, and what did you do?
This is a top-level diplomat (in our hierarchical ladder this is category “A”), who is authorized to conduct independent negotiations on a predetermined range of issues. I was responsible for security issues in Northeast Asia, and primarily dealt with the nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula.
- That is, here you need to be an expert not only in the field of politics, but also in the field of weapons...
And much more. If someone wants to be a diplomat, they need to know much more, even than they would like. And they won’t teach you this at the institute.
- Tell us, with whom did you come to Canberra?
I came with my wife Irina Nikolaevna. We have two daughters, they are already adults and have their own families. Fully accomplished people who have made a good, successful career in life. We can only rejoice. My advice to everyone for the future: never skimp on children. One and a half billion Chinese will confirm this. I know many Chinese diplomats; they do not skimp on children, because they know that this is an investment that later gives them support in life.
- I would like to believe. In Western society, children generally leave home as soon as they grow up and then visit their parents a couple of times a year. This is the second side of the issue.
Yes, I am also familiar with this from the USA; in this regard, our way of life in Russia is more patriarchal.
- Your predecessor, Ambassador V.N. Morozov, had to go through difficult times. The last two years have been perhaps the most difficult period in relations between Australia and Russia in many years. Now the situation has softened a little, and even Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull recently said that there should be more consultation with Russia on military operations in Syria, but the situation is still very far from ideal. How will the Russian Embassy build political relations with the Australian side, on what principles?
Unfortunately, things have become difficult in the world now. The entire edifice of international relations, which took shape in the post-war years and was designed to prevent global conflicts, began to vibrate and stagger. Something like turbulence. I wouldn’t guess where the situation will go now. But I want to be optimistic, although there are alarming symptoms.
What is happening in Russian-Australian relations is one of the manifestations of this. I will not evaluate the statements of the Australian side. In general, I try to look at myself more and give self-esteem. At the end of the day, how another person behaves is his business. And I try to structure my answer in such a way that, on the one hand, I defend my interests, but do not end up in a quarrel. This is the art of diplomacy. Yes, the aggravation was sharp. Have we passed it? They passed, although not completely. But there are positive hints, I agree.
The first contacts I had with the Australian Foreign Ministry were that this is the second time the top leaders of our countries are meeting, this is very encouraging. Of course, you need to be realistic and understand that there are pitfalls ahead, against which everything can break. This is the pending verdict on MH17 (the plane shot down over Donbass, editor's note). Nobody knows yet what the verdict will be. It’s worse that the culprits have already been identified. And we consider this completely unacceptable.
- Sometimes economic and cultural ties between countries make it possible to pull political relations out of difficult situations.
I will say not even sometimes, but very often, political normalization occurs as a consequence of economic, scientific, cultural, and humanitarian ties. I can cite my experience as a sinologist as a very convincing illustration. I, one way or another, participated in the entire process of normalization of relations between China and the Soviet Union, which began in 1982 and which reached its highest point in May 1989, when, following Gorbachev’s visit, a joint statement was adopted announcing the complete normalization of relations.
And it all started with one trip of a group of Chinese writers and philologists to the Soviet Union. Then scientists of a different profile went, coal miners and railway workers went. The commission on economics has been renewed. And so everything went gradually further, and this created the right environment for an important political decision, when in Krasnoyarsk Gorbachev said, although few people paid attention to it: “The border must be drawn along the fairway.”
This ended 30 years of disputes over territorial issues. And this is the most complex and painful problem between any countries. Therefore, when there are known problems in the political sphere, practical connections come forward - this is science, this is economics, this is culture.
These areas must be protected from political conditions. Well, what does Russian ballet and negative international alignments and friction have to do with it, and what does fine art have to do with it. In Australia we see great opportunities for scientific exchange with Russia, for example in the space field, where we have advanced experience. And we are ready to share it, ready to work together. And my work as an ambassador will not be limited to a narrowed set of political relations. Diplomacy is the widest sphere of activity in its scope. And to improve relations between our two countries, I will do everything in my power that is possible and even more.
- You are an ambassador not only to Australia, what other countries are in your jurisdiction as an ambassador?
Also Fiji, Vanuatu, Nauru and Tuvalu. True, agreman or official confirmation has so far been received from Vanuatu and Nauru. Receiving from the other two, I think, is a matter of time. Small island states have specific interests, and where possible, we cooperate. I think the best practices that Russia has regarding space can be very useful. Because from space we are able to monitor the emergence of typhoons and other natural disasters and warn about them in advance. When concluding bilateral relations, it allows these countries to gain free access to international data on this information.
- At one time, the Russian Embassy in Canberra bought land and planned to build a new embassy building. Then the plans were put on hold. How relevant is this task? What is the number of Russian diplomats in the embassy, will it increase?
There are plans, funds have been allocated, and the area in the Yaralamla area has already been cleared of trees. There were some problems. We had to reconsider individual components of the project. I hope all approvals will be completed in the coming week and more practical matters will begin. I would really like to believe that towards the end of my stay here, I will be able to take part in the opening of the new embassy building.
- Isn’t the decision to build a new embassy connected with the growing importance of relations between our two countries?
I would not make such political statements; it reminded me of the well-known joke about how, after the change of USSR ambassadors to the USA, Dobrynin to Dubinin, they began to interpret it as a toughening of the Soviet Union’s policy towards the USA. In the situation with the embassy, first of all, we are talking about creating more convenient and comfortable conditions for the work and residence of Russian diplomats. The current embassy building is old and does not meet modern standards for housing a diplomatic mission. That's why the decision to build was made. As for the size of the embassy, I believe that, given the current level of relations between Australia and Russia, the diplomatic composition of our embassy is quite adequate.
- There is a fairly large Russian community in Australia. Russian people who came to the country after World War II from Harbin, Shanghai and Manchuria have lived here for more than 60 years. Do you know this page of Russian life in China? You worked in China for several years? How do you plan to build relationships with your compatriots?
The history of Russians in China is not a new page for me. For me, as a sinologist, this layer of Russian immigration is very close. Moreover, these are people with a very difficult fate. The vast majority of people who remained in Harbin are employees of the Chinese Eastern Railway and the Southern Moscow Railway, this is the apparatus of the merchant Churin, who controlled almost all of Manchuria, and whose memory, it must be said, the Chinese have restored. In Harbin, on every corner you will see two characters that mean Churin. The Churinsky department store is open and has Churinskaya sausage in its stores. Today I already talked with the “old Harbin woman,” one might say. And I will look forward to new meetings.
In general, working with compatriots is one of the key priorities, as I set them. In the Soviet Union, it was essentially a criminal mistake when these people were taken and crossed out. The very tragic history of our country splashed out waves of emigration. These were the most worthy people, nobility, officers, which practically coincided.
These are bearers of statehood and patriotic mentality. This is the intellectual elite who did not accept the October Revolution and who were then finished off. I learned that there are families where, already in the fifth generation who left Russia, children learn Russian, protect their Russian roots, and want to preserve their Russian identity. And it is very important to preserve this sense of belonging, unity with the Russian world. The West's attempts to show that Europe almost pulled Russians out of their dugouts are complete nonsense. In fact, our history is deepest. When Peter the Great switched to the Julian calendar, the Russian calendar, which he crossed out, was five thousand years old!
Speaking about compatriots, of course, we understand that most people are citizens of another country, so we need to be able to combine correctly so that, on the one hand, this does not interfere in the internal affairs of other states, and on the other hand, help them preserve their cultural identity .
- Grigory Semenovich, thank you for the interesting conversation and wish you a successful start to your work in Australia. We hope for further meetings at Russian large-scale events, such as the Russian Renaissance film festival and others that take place regularly in Australia.
On January 20, 2017, at the Consulate General of Russia in Sydney, a meeting was held between Russian Ambassador Grigory Semenovich Logvinov and journalists from Russian-language media in Australia. The topic of conversation was the situation in the Russian-speaking community of the country.
The meeting was attended by the editor of the Edinenie newspaper Vladimir Kuzmin, the publisher of the Horizon newspaper Semyon Pinchuk and editor Evgeny Kovarsky, Vladimir Dubossarsky - journalist of the Russian radio SBS, Zhanna Alifanova - Russian Radio Australia, Marina and Alexander Belkin - TV company RusTalk and editor of the online publication " Time" Irina Simonyan.
Grigory Logvinov said that during the five months that he was in the country, he managed to become well acquainted with the Russian-speaking communities of Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Canberra. He also plans to visit communities in Perth and Adelaide in the near future.
Older generation
“After my arrival, many were interested in how I see the situation in the Russian community of Australia, and how the embassy will interact with it,” said Grigory Semenovich. - I heard many points of view from different people in the community. But before I answered, I needed to see for myself and draw my own conclusions. My wife also works a lot directly in relations with compatriots. She was specially in Moscow, met with representatives of Rossotrudnichestvo, and the assessments that will be made are our joint conclusions.
Firstly, many things impressed me and confirmed my first positive impression. First of all, I want to pay tribute to what the older generation of Australian Russians, those who came mainly from China, did, they, as I understand it, are about 30% of the Russian community. These are the people who, having arrived in the country penniless, built schools, churches, and so on. Honor and praise to them for the material, spiritual, moral foundation of the Russian diaspora in Australia. Here I want to talk about the role played by the Orthodox clergy. I was also able to meet many of them, including Bishop Hilarion, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.
I am convinced that Orthodox churches here in Australia are a real center of attraction for compatriots; they are the temple of God, which creates high spiritual and moral guidelines. After these meetings I was left with a deep impression, although I am not a churchgoer or even a baptized person, from a family of old communists.”
Devotees of Russian society
“I would like to say especially about the Russian Revival film festival,” noted Grigory Semenovich. - Over the 13 years that it has been held, over 106 thousand people have visited it. And his popularity not only in Russian society, but also in Australian society, is growing. It is definitely necessary to note the merit of Nikolai Maksimov, who has been leading the festival all these years...
There are also truly ascetic projects (in the Russian community) - these are Russian schools. I learned that there are students whose parents are already in the fourth generation living outside of Russia, nevertheless, they strive to preserve the Russian language. It is very touching to see how graduates - yesterday's schoolchildren - come to help teachers on a voluntary basis.
Of course, I can’t help but mention the Russian Charitable Society of Sergius of Radonezh... I had the opportunity to walk through the wards and see how the elderly are cared for. I would like every old man left without a family in Russia to be able to receive such support...
The first Russian House-Museum, which Mikhail Moiseevich Ovchinnikov built practically with his own money, the anniversary of the museum will be celebrated in April.”
The Embassy does not manage the Council of Compatriots
“We definitely need to look at the Council of Russian Compatriots in Australia (CRCA),” the ambassador continued. - I perceive it as the main structure uniting compatriots. On a national scale. I must note that a lot of important and good things are being done here. This is the Festival of National Unity, and those events that are held to commemorate May 9, and the “Immortal Regiment”. The business forum that will be held on February 11 will be very important. Its success will mean that the Council of Compatriots has entered a qualitatively new stage in its development. I would like to confirm that I will attend and am available to speak at the opening. As Ambassador, I will provide the Council with maximum attention and support so that SRSA becomes, in the full sense of the word, a structure that unites all segments of our Russian diaspora here.
At the same time, I would like to repeat that neither I, as an ambassador, nor the embassy or consulate directs or administers the Council. All these months I tried to build equally close relationships with all segments of the Russian community. They are included in the SRSA or are not included, or stand apart. A Russian person is important to me, regardless of his citizenship. In this regard, there can be no relatives or stepchildren for me. My wife and I categorically exclude such a division. Every person has every right to his own opinion, his own position, has the right to criticize, agree or disagree.
But it is absolutely unacceptable when polemics go beyond certain moral and ethical boundaries. We all remember that extremely unseemly precedent; I think there is no need for us to name the names of people or a specific publication. Unfortunately, that speech is incompatible either with the name of the publication or with the way it positions itself... When there are insults, mockery, swearing, and even ethnic notes begin to sound, which is criminally punishable under Russian law, this is categorically unacceptable for me.”
Without political context
“In my opinion, it would probably be wrong if such a criterion as political loyalty were placed at the forefront of one’s relationship with compatriots,” noted Grigory Semenovich. - Many of us went through a period (in the USSR, ed.) when everyone supported everything, but it ended with us losing the country. The second point is that you need to see the genesis, the origin of the Russian community in Australia. It is too heterogeneous, too ambiguous to count on political “monochrome”...
The main criterion should be a sense of common history, common culture, common civilization, which is called Russia outside of a specific political context.”
Further, saying that his parents and in-laws participated and experienced a lot in the Great Patriotic War, the ambassador added that “it is difficult for him to understand when compatriots say that May 9 is not their holiday. After all, then it was not about saving any particular political regime. It was about saving Russia."
About being organized
The ambassador said that after talking with representatives of three territorial councils, he noted three general areas. People complain that the SRSA is overly centralized and overorganized. Speaking about finances, people note the lack of transparency and undemocratic behavior in the distribution of the budget, and there are also many complaints about the ousting of older people from the council.
Speaking about the danger of the council being over-organized, the ambassador noted that “unfortunately, the principle “Whoever is not with us is against us” is beginning to work. And dividing lines inevitably begin to emerge, which tend to deepen.”
Speaking about the transparency of work, the ambassador noted that in many respects “this depends on the members of the Council themselves. As for finances, the thesis of self-reliance should be at the forefront of the advice. If the Council finds independent sources of funding, this will inevitably form an appropriate transparent democratic management mechanism. Of course, this does not mean that the council will be deprived of the support of the Russian Federation; everything will continue in full, as it was done.”
Further discussion needed
Summing up the results on this issue, Grigory Semenovich noted: “I categorically do not share the opinion that the Council of Compatriots did not take place and went bankrupt. Or the existing opinion that this organization is artificially created or useless. I don't agree with this. Yes, the council still needs to find its place, its identity. But it is obvious to me that the council has considerable potential.
In conclusion, I would like to note that I do not see any lethal threats to the council. All this can be overcome through joint efforts. When the energy and dynamics of the younger generation combines with the experience of the older generation, this provides the most powerful mechanism that can overcome almost any difficulty. Yes, there are problems, there are complaints, discontent. Let's think about creating a working group.
On the one hand, there is Irina Simonyan, the current management, there is her team, and there is the team of honorary chairman Igor Kazimirovich Savitsky, which also has its own experience, its own achievements. Why not try to find a solution together. My experience as a sinologist shows that in China the older generation is not excluded or thrown out, unlike in Soviet times. There are even special institutions being created there to use this experience. And this is a practice that has been used in China for many centuries. On the other hand, the older generation gets used to some of its own patterns. And this is exactly what the younger generation needs to sit down together and discuss what to do. For my part, I will support this idea. Not necessarily in the form of a working group, maybe in another similar format, in order to establish this bond and together decide how the council should develop further.”
Speech by the editor of "Unity"
The editor of the Edinenie newspaper, Vladimir Kuzmin, noted in his speech that about one hundred thousand people live in Australia, connected by language, history, and their roots with Russia. Many participate in the life of Russian society. In Sydney alone there are ten Russian schools, there are several theaters, dance groups, literary societies, musical ensembles, and clubs. All of them are organizations that support the Russian language, Russian culture here, and at the same time contribute to the strengthening of the Russian community. The newspaper considers its main goal to cover the work of these organizations and tell stories about the people participating in them. All these people are part of the Russian world, creating a positive image of Russia.
And it is on this cultural and linguistic basis that the diverse groups of people in our community can be brought together and benefit Russia. And bringing political issues into the work will only cause unnecessary quarrels and lead to further stratification and weakening of our society.
